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Forum » Cyberweek Discussions (see Program page for descriptions) » Debategraph » Chime in on Music Downloading - can ODR be used to shape public policy?

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Author Topic: Chime in on Music Downloading - can ODR be used to shape public policy?
JeffAresty
Member
Posts: 6
Post Chime in on Music Downloading - can ODR be used to shape public policy?
on: October 26, 2009, 06:07

Why is the law behind technology? Musicmaking and music piracy is a debate playing out in the developing world in a way that assumes that laws passed hundreds of years ago for a part of the world are just and support the interests of the public. Is this true? What about the all the people in the developing world who do not have access to justice systems and laws regarding the intellectual property they will make some day? And, is the use of collaborative technology which connects the world a way to shape this debate? We think so. Enter Debategraph.

Debategraph is a collaborative online dialog visualization tool with a strong public policy focus, currently being used by Amanpour on CNN, the European Commission, and The Independent newspaper in the UK. All participants in Cyberweek are invited to join us to explore, extend, and evaluate an interactive map of the legal issues around music downloading, which has been seeded by a team of law students at UMass and Liverpool Law School. The aim across Cyberweek is develop the seed map into a definitive representation of the subject, in which all the salient ideas, arguments and perspectives are represented fairly and in full in a single, coherent, transparent and interactive structure that can be embedded and shared around the web. In parallel with this, participants are invited to explore the applicability of this approach to their own areas of interest; with co-founder David Price available to guide you through the process and answer any questions throughout the week.

Led by Danielle Dean, students at the University of Massachusetts have made a new debategraph for the beginning of the discussion, the link is here: http://debategraph.org/Stream.aspx?nID=34220

Professor Joseeph Savirimuthu of the Liverpool Law School has developed a blog which provides great depth to the legal debate around the impact of peer to peer technology on music downloading.

http://coda-memorypalace.blogspot.com/2009/10/peer-to-peer-networks-or-music.html

Social entrepreneur, currently teaching Ethan Katsh’s course on Law and WWW at U Mass

dneled
Member
Posts: 4
Post Re: Chime in on Music Downloading - can ODR be used to shape public policy?
on: October 26, 2009, 10:10

This is a really fascinating topic that is definitely difficult to even grasp at first. How can anyone protect their intellectual property when people are out there sharing files between computers with little or no consequence?

I find it most appalling when people say that they have a “right” to the works of others. For example, I have had people tell me that record companies are “ripping people off” so therefore they can do the same in return by stealing the music online. Yet to me, this just doesn’t seem logical. “Two wrongs don’t make a right”. And for the most part – music today is cheap! Also, there are so many legal avenues to copyrighted works. For example – Pandora radio, where you can tailor the music you listen to streaming online for free, and ITunes, where you can download music at a fraction of the cost that same music would have been twenty years ago.

I definitely do see some people’s points that music should be allowed to be downloaded for free to allow sampling, to spread the word of new artists, etc. Yet I still think that no matter what, this should be left up to the artist, the person whose material it is.

So how can we change this culture of entitlement, of wanting free downloads? Do we try to change the laws so that people stop doing it? Do we try to make new social norms?

-Danielle Dean

akhiterm
Member
Posts: 1
Post Re: Chime in on Music Downloading - can ODR be used to shape public policy?
on: October 26, 2009, 12:06

Danielle, I agree with you that the topic of intellectual property, even as it extends out of realm of music pirating, is a fascinating and complex issue. Not having authority over your own creative work has been a long standing issue, and the problems lie mostly in how figuring out how a society can govern something that is not even tangible. The internet has made this task even more difficult as it has taken non physical things and placed “them” in an international non tangible and almost impossible to restrict forum.

Changing the “culture of entitlement” is not going to be an easily accomplished task, this is assuming this can even be accomplished. In theory, the right course of action to take care of problems regarding theft of intellectual property, is to shut down the sources that are illegally supplying creative works of others. However this has proven ineffective. In the case of music downloading many pirate music sites were shut down, universities put up blocks on computers who were illegally downloading music, extreme monetary penalties as well as legal ones were strictly enforced, yet music pirating has not stopped.

We must start by first accepting the blame. The internet was a phenomena that hit the world by force. We were less concerned with the dangers of intercontinental sharing and so were less prepared for the consequences. The laws were implemented too late in the game for them to have any effect on existing problems of intellectual property theft. What we can do, is think of new ways to enforce new laws to insure other mediums do not fall victim to the same flaws as music downloading. As far as fixing past problems, I think that Danielle makes a great point in suggesting the attempt to change social norms. If people begin to recognize the wrongs of intellectual property theft then it can be assumed that there will be a drop in the act. However as long as people can get something for free, no matter how inexpensive it may be, they will.

DavidPrice
Member
Posts: 3
Post Re: Chime in on Music Downloading - can ODR be used to shape public policy?
on: October 26, 2009, 14:46

Thanks, Jeff, Danielle and Amanda: and I have started to map the conversation thus far in this region of the map:

http://debategraph.org/Stream.aspx?nID=34811

…and please don’t hesitate to suggest or make any further changes (either here or on the map).

David

Co-founder, Debategraph.org, Blog: http//opentopersuasion.com, Twitter: @Debategraph

dneled
Member
Posts: 4
Post Re: Chime in on Music Downloading - can ODR be used to shape public policy?
on: October 26, 2009, 17:49

Looks great David!!

RobertCFierro
Member
Posts: 2
Post Re: Chime in on Music Downloading - can ODR be used to shape public policy?
on: October 26, 2009, 23:55

Up until now my peers on this blog have raised some interesting and pivotal points surrounding music downloading and Intellectual Property (IP) infringement; as well as the question of the ability to utilize online dispute resolution (ODR) to shape public policy.

I certainly agree with Danielle and Amanda’s points that there has been an elevated sense of entitlement to music; or rather a need to revolt against the music industry’s [via “stealing music”] for its past “unfair” business practices; despite the inherent copyright infringements.

Professor Aresty had earlier alluded to how the law is behind technology; and I argue that this is similarly why these trends [expressed by Danielle and Amanda] have been so prominent recently in society. I find that the ever evolving and more expansive reach of technology has permitted our generation to partake in such acts which have been so subversive to copyrights/IP. Furthermore, I feel that our generation grew up with and stood upon the crest of this wave of technology, as well as frequent and comfortable use of it and associated services and programs. Thus I posit that our uses of technology for copyright/IP infringement have seemed all the more natural or even warranted due to the ease of committing such acts; especially when teamed with our rebellious and righteous nature.

I also argue that our generation made up the foremost common users of such networked sharing; and thus these things would at first go neither noticed nor reprimanded, and thus seem okay. Unfortunately this has led to a generation of “bandits” with a cemented belief that the “sharing” or rather stealing that their doing is fine. At the same time the older generation is responsible for the development of law and/or practices to resolve this dispute despite their lesser technological experience, or even a slight conception in the past that such acts would ever be possible today. Our generation and others who partake in illegal downloading/copyright infringement have thus been able to “remain at large” due to our lightning fast steed of technology. On the other hand the law has continuously had trouble keeping up and or really ever being able to stabilize the copyright/IP markets, as well as our technologically permitted e-larceny.

This then brings me back to Danielle, Amanda, and Professor Aresty’s points that clearly some form of action must be taken; and what tool would there be better than Debategraph to map out, understand, and further the logic behind a potential a solution via ODR. Amanda and Danielle raised a valid point that our social norms and perceived right of entitlement need to change as traditional legal methods to squelch illegal downloading have proved faulty.

Yet I feel that is only one approach or even facet to a very complex necessary solution. One arguably rather necessary approach and response to Professor Aresty’s core question, is yes ODR can certainly be influential in shaping public policy. I especially believe that ODR would have an immense propensity to shape public policy if used more throughout developing countries, where the law has not been fully developed or too restrictive of societies. In such countries I also feel that it would be rather necessary to make a strident effort to involve the younger generations and those well versed with technology in such development and debate; aside from whichever governments and/or enterprises that my have significant power/voice. The younger generations and those who are or are willing to become proficient in the knowledge and use of advancing technologies would naturally be viewed as the common enemies/assailants to those involved in the music industry, the internet intermediaries, and those developing such faulty IP protection and retribution law. In our given predicament we have the two enemies pitted against one another; as well as ODR and potentially other forms of ADR as the potential “enemies of my enemies”. Along such logic ODR could be seen as the enemy to the downloaders/young generation etc. as it could potentially re-tighten the law and music industry’s grasp on copyrighted material, or the polar opposite for music industry and law [what it currently seems to be]. Alternatively the commonly uttered maxim would suggest that at the same time a shared open forum [at least for developing the “people’s”/downloaders goals and grievances] and use of ODR could instead serve as the tool to carve out a proper legal niche for the distribution and enjoyment of music to exist efficiently and legally. Again this is Debategraph would be a viable tool for both the general public, as well as law developers and those in the music industry to voice and align each party’s goals and grievances. The result would thus aid in furthering ODR’s solution to our current debacle, and a debacle which may inevitably affect all other “developing nations”.

Targeting intermediaries [in this case the internet service providers (ISPs)] is another solution or perhaps simply one facet of a multi-approach solution that I am rather fond of and can readily think of to prevent illegal music downloading and copyright infringement [as suggested by Jack Goldsmith and Tim Wu in Who Controls the Internet: Illusions of a Borderless World]. I find that implementing censorship public policy/legal frameworks [as used by China] would be the only other alternative or potential permutation of the aforementioned approach that I would find rather effective; yet not at all accepted by the general American public nor too many law-makers.

crodgers
Member
Posts: 1
Post Re: Chime in on Music Downloading - can ODR be used to shape public policy?
on: October 27, 2009, 19:49

I agree that illegal downloading is not the right approach to the fact that some record companies may be “ripping people off”. Since the law is so behind technology it is a hard problem to solve how people in third world countries without access to court systems can have a fair way of profiting from their music if it is being pirated. One solution to this problem may be by using ODR in order to help third world countries have some sort of action against illegal downloading. Thus, ODR can replace the non-existent court systems and help resolve the problem of pirating of third world countries.
Furthermore, even if we utilize ODR in order to maintain illegal downloading it is still required that the law catch up with technology in order to permit proper understanding of what is considered illegal on the internet. Also, we would have to create better systems to catch the illegal down-loaders, in order to properly prosecute them.

-Christine Rodgers

JeffAresty
Member
Posts: 6
Post Re: Chime in on Music Downloading - can ODR be used to shape public policy?
on: October 27, 2009, 22:19

Doesn’t the law need to be ‘reinvented’ in cyberspace? I’m constantly surprised by the notion that laws are sacred – how many drivers obey the speed limits? There is a calculation that goes on in your head as you drive the road and see people zipping by you, and, you are all ready driving 10 miles over the posted speed – what’s the calculation? Will I get caught if I speed? How much will it cost? Is it worth it? What are the risks? That’s what law has become – a risk/reward assessment.

How does this play out with the current IP debate? Absolutely, it is worth noting that there are legal ways to get your music. And, there are just as many illegal ways to get the same music. Does it make sense to say that the same end result – listening to a song on your portable device – is legal if you access the music one way, and illegal if you access it another? What is going on? I guess you have to look at who is being hurt and then you can make a fair assessment of the value of the law. Creators are being hurt, right? Well, if that’s true, then we are assuming that IP laws actually work to protect creators – I don’t think that this is universally believed.

Certainly, as the developing world comes online – new values, new rules, need to be thought through.

Social entrepreneur, currently teaching Ethan Katsh’s course on Law and WWW at U Mass

dleonard
Member
Posts: 2
Post Re: Chime in on Music Downloading - can ODR be used to shape public policy?
on: October 28, 2009, 02:56

The argument between those who support free distribution on the internet and those who are against it has been to black and white. Those who have things stolen from them on the web assume that each of these losses is the equivalent to a lost sale, and I think this is far from the case.

The first argument against piracy is that sales are decreased. Two of the biggest pushers of this argument are the RIAA and the MPAA. The RIAA has repeatedly stated that music piracy is destroying the industry. According to the year end shipment statistics posted on the RIAA website (http://76.74.24.142/D5664E44-B9F7-69E0-5ABD-B605F2EB6EF2.pdf), this would seem to be the case. The RIAA claims to have an 18.2% lower total value of sold goods in 2007 than in 2008. Yet a further look shows that they actually sold 4% more music in 2008 than 2007. They simply sold this music at a lower price. During an extremely tough economic period and during a time when piracy continues to be high, they are still selling music in larger volumes. The MPAA has also claimed that it is suffering from piracy, yet the past two years they have posted record profits.

2004 Total Movies Released: 567 Total Combined Gross: ,327,315,935
2005 Total Movies Released: 594 Total Combined Gross: ,825,324,278
2006 Total Movies Released: 808 Total Combined Gross: ,225,689,414
2007 Total Movies Released: 1022 Total Combined Gross: ,665,661,126
2008 Total Movies Released: 1037 Total Combined Gross: ,705,677,862
(statistics copied from torrentfreak.com, who in turn got them from a box office tracking website the-numbers.com)

These statistics show that the MPAA is increasing their profits despite piracy and, once again, despite a troubled economic period. These numbers do show that the average profit per movie has decreased. On the other hand, the number of movies in 2008 was almost double that in 2005. Such a large increase in quantity seems unlikely to be able to be matched by quality. A large number of these movies were probably low budget films. Doubling the number of produced films is also unlikely to cause people to see twice as many movies. Most people simply are unable to afford to do so. This means we can look at the profit total and ignore the profit per movie in this situation. In this light, the MPAA is not only unhurt by piracy, but people are viewing more movies in theater than ever before.

Now let us look at this argument in another perspective. Instead of looking at piracy as a whole hurting industry as a whole, let us look at a specific person. The argument would be that if this person commits piracy, they are less likely to spend money on what they pirate. Personal experience tells me this is far from the case. A friend of mine has used torrents to acquire several thousand songs, yet at the same time he spends more money on music than anyone I know. For him downloading is almost like wine tasting. When he has money to spend he downloads any music people recommend to him. Then he buys the music he likes best. Sometimes he even buys more music than he planned to. While those who are pushing for more stringent copyright infringement punishments have tried to say that people like my friend are rare, I think many, if not most, people have friends exactly like mine. Often several of them. The only time people like my friend cost the music industry money is when they discover music they had planned on buying really isn’t as good as they expected.

Another mistake in this viewpoint is the assumption that every illegal download stopped is a purchase gained. I have never been a musical person, although I do enjoy listening to music occasionally. In the days of Napster, before I even understood all the implications of downloading music, I had hundreds of songs. Once the lawsuits began, I stopped downloading and eventually lost my music when I switched computers. I have not purchased a single CD or paid to download a single song since. I lost the ability to enjoy music at my discretion, and they gained nothing. Perhaps they even lost something technically, as it costs them money to perform all these lawsuits. It cost them money to stop me from doing something they would never earn money from anyway. While this may be an exception, it isn’t unique. While most people who stopped downloading have likely purchased music, chances are they have no purchased the exact amount they would have downloaded.

Institutions such as the RIAA and MPAA are not helping themselves in the fight against piracy. The majority of the public views downloading music akin the speeding or jay walking. They acknowledge it is wrong, but it is not a big deal. The massive sums these corporations have been demanding do not help their cause. Can you imagine what you would do if you were slapped with a ,000 speeding ticket? Probably speed your car right through the courthouse doors screaming and hollering about injustice. This isn’t about getting what is theirs, this is about scare tactics. The recent case RIAA v Tenenbaum resulted in a ,500 fee per song. This is a fee of 22499% over the initial price. I can not imagine a single place in the United States where anyone would put up with such a mark up quietly. People are starting to notice this fact and they now consider downloading to be a civil disobedience. There is a sort of proud dignity about it. Not only are you getting things for free, you are “fighting the man”.

I stated previously that I did not believe this was a black and white argument, yet I have argued pretty much against the institutions who are arguing that they should receive money for their own property and rightfully so. The reason for this is that it is my belief that the solution to this problem lies somewhere in the middle ground. Instead of moving towards the middle ground, the copyright holders seem to be holding their ground or even trying to regress. Instead of working with the people, they attempt to bully them and argue against the people based on fallacies. If they want those who may become pirates to work with them instead of against them, they need to work with those individuals in turn. It is the duty of the more aggressive party to take a step back and offer an olive branch, as the reverse situation would be surrender. Both sides need to work towards something, rather than having one side give in.

dneled
Member
Posts: 4
Post Re: Chime in on Music Downloading - can ODR be used to shape public policy?
on: October 28, 2009, 20:01

In response to Dan, I agree that companies suing people who download a song for much more than the song would have cost is a little absurd because it turns law into a scare tactic rather than people agreeing on what’s right. We do need to find a middle ground on this issue. It’s sad that people download or pirate things just to “stand up to the man” and they shouldn’t do these things because they are wrong, not because they are scared.

And I see your point about your friend who downloads music but then buys it after. But I still don’t think this is right – sure, if the artist wants people to sample their music for free then your friend should download the music, but shouldn’t that decision be left up to the artist? I just can’t imagine spending my life devoted to developing something of my own, and having it spread without any acknowledgment. I understand that he often buys the music after, but it still doesn’t seem right to me, and I know there are people out there who aren’t like your friend. No matter what, it’s still stealing.

I also don’t know if I agree with your point about the movie industry: so are you saying that you can rationalize piracy because the music industry’s profits went up? I just don’t think this makes sense. People work for something and they should be able to determine the cost of the item – supply/demand. If the cost is too high, people shouldn’t steal it, they just shouldn’t buy it so the supply goes down naturally. I just don’t think you can justify piracy in these situations.

-Danielle

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